In this podcast, “DEDICATED,” music writer and THE 97 founder Vincent Anthony speaks with the most devoted fans of the most divine divas. This inaugural episode, “Me. I Am Lambily… and the Elusive Chanteuse,” is about Mariah Carey, her Lambs, and how they react to a flop album.
Carey’s album “Me. I Am Mariah … The Elusive Chanteuse,” turned ten in May 2024. A decade later, the Lambs, like “Why Mariah Carey Matters” author Andrew Chan, still listen to it. So, what do fans appreciate about these lesser-known albums that the masses couldn’t connect with?
Chan and three other Lambs, whom Vincent met at a “Mariah Night” event at a New York City gay bar, spoke with him about their fandom and “The Elusive Chanteuse.”
Listen below or on your favorite podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more.
Credits:
Written, produced, and reported by Vincent Anthony.
Edited by Meg Cramer
Mastered by Amber Watson
Purchase THE 97’s first-ever print magazine celebrating “Me. I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse” album. Use the code “podcast” for $2 off.
THE 97 ZINE, Issue 1 – “Me. I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse”
Episode 1 Script
VINCENT ANTHONY: Have you ever met Mariah?
ANDREW CHAN: I have. I met her in 2014 – she hadn’t released “Me. I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse yet” – but, it was Valentine’s Day before the release of the album. And, It’s a bit of a long story, but my friend…
NARRATION: I’ll spare him the tangent. Andrew Chan has been a Mariah Carey fan since he was a kid in the 90s. So, by the time she released her 14th studio album, “Me. I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse,” Andrew had experienced ten album release cycles. Except, this one was a bit different – for several reasons.
As part of her promotional push for “The Elusive Chanteuse,” Carey participated in a charity fundraiser. Fans donated to win a private concert at her New York City penthouse.
Andrew and his friend Lisa entered the contest. Lisa ended up winning – and she invited Andrew and another friend to join her at Carey’s penthouse performance.
ANDREW: It was surreal. It was, it was very, uh, it almost didn’t feel… real. Yeah. So even as I tell the memory, it’s like, uh, did that really happen?
NARRATION: Usually, meet and greets are a blip. You’re lucky if they’re a minute long and if you get a few words in. You’re extra lucky if you get a hug. But this was different. One whole hour – just 3 fans and 1 diva.
ANDREW: She did some acapella moments… Honestly, I’m not even sure if I’m allowed to say this, but Mariah, whatever, forgive me for, if you ever hear this, it’s hopefully it’s fine that I’m saying this, but, um, she sang like the whistle notes from the beginning of “Migrate.”
<MUX IN – “Migrate” whistle notes and under>
She, we sang “Touch My Body” together. And then she took some requests, and so I said, “Slipping Away!”
<MUX IN – “Slipping Away” under>
And she was like, I don’t remember, how does that go? And so I started singing it, and then she kind of harmonized on top of me. That was crazy.
<MUX IN – “Slipping Away” clip>
NARRATION: “Slipping Away” is a deep cut. Carey loves it when fans know her rarities.
Andrew’s private concert experience happened just three months before Carey released her 14th studio album, “The Elusive Chanteuse.” The album was her first flop since her 2005 comeback. It was a commercial disappointment and didn’t receive high praise from critics. But for her fans, its release shed light on what was going on in Carey’s world at the time. Lifelong fans like Andrew are known as “Lambs.” It’s a name her fans took on in the late 90s before naming fans was a thing.
Carey now affectionately refers to them as her “Lambily” because of their close bond. Lambs connect with Carey because of her lyrics, and how personal they are. It’s something that sets her apart from her diva peers.
Andrew examines that fact in his 2023 book, “Why Mariah Carey Matters.” He uses in-depth research and his knowledge as a fan, to give a critical analysis of Carey’s legacy.
In this podcast, “DEDICATED,” I’m speaking with the most devoted fans of the most divine divas. This inaugural episode, “Me. I Am Lambily… and the Elusive Chanteuse,” is about Mariah Carey, her Lambs, and how they react to a flop album.
That album Andrew mentioned at the beginning of this episode with the impossibly long title, “Me. I Am Mariah … The Elusive Chanteuse,” turns ten this month. A decade later, the Lambs, like Andrew, still listen to it. So, what do fans appreciate about these lesser-known albums that the masses couldn’t connect with?
To begin, we must go back in time to that moment of diva discovery. A recent social media meme jokes that” by age 13, every gay boy chooses his favorite pop diva.” We identify with their music, and it comes to define us. For Andrew, that diva was Mariah Carey.
ANDREW: The first album that my family purchased was on CD, the “Daydream” album from 1995. But even before that, I remember her Procter’s Theater, uh, performance around the time that “Music Box” was released.
<MUX IN – “Vision of Love” at Proctor’s Theater>
And I just remember being a kid, probably seven years old, six or seven years old, hearing her singing “Hero,” “Anytime You Need a Friend,” “Vision of Love,” and just thinking, “who is that?” And her voice rattled me.”
<MUX IN – “Vision of Love” at Proctor’s Theater>
ANDREW: “Daydream” was really the era where, um, I remember seeing the poster in the record store and touching the golden CD, you know, and playing it over and over again. And because the hit singles from that album were so massive, it just felt like Mariah was following you to swimming lessons, and to school, and to the grocery store. Like she, she became almost a friend to my ears.
NARRATION: Andrew says he followed Carey’s career, but his status as a “Lamb” really solidified with her 2005 comeback album, “The Emancipation of Mimi.” Her 2001 album “Glitter” was a tragic flop, but, with “Mimi,” she proved the haters wrong and scored the biggest hit of her career.
It was then that Andrew realized that they belonged together. At the time, he was a freshman in college.
ANDREW: I felt emancipated leaving home, to be honest, because Um, it was a very stifling environment for me, uh, living in the suburbs. My parents are very religious. Being able to come out and be in a completely different community was a big thing, and I definitely think there was a parallel between Mariah finding her voice again and, and discovering a new level of artistic freedom and myself discovering new kinds of freedom in my own life, for sure.
NARRATION: Carey is often praised for her singing, but her biggest fans revere her lyrics. Throughout his book, Andrew focuses on this aspect of her craft as one of the main reasons “Why Mariah Carey Matters.”
ANDREW: I think she’s really different from a lot of the divas of that era in that she is capable of writing very intimately and autobiographically, and she mines the insecurities and anxieties of her experience as a mixed-race woman, um, and it’s no wonder that a lot of her fans come from marginalized communities.
And because when you dig deeper and you listen to songs like “Outside”
<MUX IN – “Vision of Love” at Proctor’s Theater>
… “Looking In,” “Close My Eyes,” um, “Petals” you, you see this songwriter who is conveying the deepest parts of herself. in very ambivalent, ambiguous, complicated ways that I don’t think a lot of us were used to in, in the backdrop of 90s pop and R&B music where so much of the songwriting is pretty lyrically generic and following a formula.
<MUX – “Outside” up: “Always somewhat out of place everywhere/ Ambiguous, without a sense of belonging to touch… Somewhere halfway, feeling there’s no one completely the same.” – and under>
Those songs are really powerful because they don’t try to pretend like it’s all going to be okay. Um, I mean she does have songs like “Hero,” she does have songs like “Can’t Take That Away”, but for me the most powerful, um, songs in that vein are ones like Outside and looking in that kind of acknowledge how deep that kind of pain of being marginalized and oppressed goes and how it can haunt you even as life gets better and even as you find success and happiness in different ways, like the memories of, of those experiences follow you. And she’s one of the few artists of her kind who taps into that conflict, inner conflict.
< MUX IN: “Looking In” – “They can’t bring me to my knees, no, they’ll never know the real me….” (applause) – out>
ANDREW: But I think the sound of her voice is so magnetic and magical that even if she wasn’t a songwriter it would still be, um, a sound that connects with people and draws them in and fosters devotion.
NARRATION: While they may be a dedicated fanbase, the Lambs are also pretty honest about when they don’t love something. Andrew’s book isn’t a biography or a puff piece. It’s a critical evaluation of her legacy, inspired by his conversations with friends who are Lambs.
ANDREW: I knew that because we could talk so seriously about her, not in an ironic way, not in a superficial way, but really get into the grit and the, um, depth of her, I knew that because I had those conversations with them that there would be other people who would want to see something like that in writing.
NARRATION: After “The Emancipation of Mimi,” Carey released three more successful albums, married comedian Nick Cannon, and gave birth to twins Moroccan and Monroe.
“The Elusive Chanteuse” was her first album post-Motherhood. At that time, Andrew also experienced a big life change. He moved to New York and lived with his friend Lisa, the one who won the tickets to the private concert.
ANDREW: So it was a household of Mariah fandom, and Lisa was a relatively new fan. I had introduced her to Mariah’s music, but she became a very fast fan. And Me, I Am Mariah was the first album that we shared together.
I remember downloading it on my iTunes. We listened to it together. So that was really my first experience of listening to a new Mariah album with a friend who cares as much about Mariah as I do.
And of course, we had just had that private concert experience… And I remember thinking, some of these songs are really intense.
NARRATION: Perhaps… too intense for the general public. Or maybe they just didn’t know it came out at all. Like the album’s title, its roll-out was long, messy, and confusing.
She released a buzz single in August 2012 that didn’t get much traction. About a year later, she released another single, a song called #Beautiful.
<MUX IN – “#Beautiful” – and under>
The album was supposed to come out a few months later, but while filming a music video for #Beautiful, Carey fell and was injured, forcing her to scrap plans for the album’s July 2013 release. It was pushed back indefinitely. When she resurfaced, she wore bedazzled slings and arm-length gloves to hide her mysterious injury.
Throughout this period, Carey switched management several times. Finally, the album’s promotional cycle restarted with the release of the single
<MUX IN – “You’re Mine” – and under >
“You’re Mine (Eternal).” It was released on Valentine’s Day 2014 — a couple weeks before Andrew’s private concert.
The album finally received a May 27th release date. It sold 58,000 copies in its first week, debuting at #3.
It was her lowest first-week total to date and her first true flop since 2001’s “Glitter.” After months of speculation about the status of their marriage, Cannon announced that they’d separated in an interview that December. 2014 was not her year.
ANDREW:
it was kind of important that this was, Her first real flop in a while, really since Glitter. And I think those moments are really important for artists. And I think it’s important for a fandom too, because the Mariah fans, the Lambs. So many of us are so invested in the number ones, getting her that 20th number one. It becomes a fixation. I understand because I, you know, I would, I would love to see her get that number one, that 20th one.
But on the other side of my brain, I’m like, she has enough number ones. And also who gives a shit really?
I mean, some of the greatest artists of all time don’t even have a single number one. Like Donny Hathaway, one of my favorite singers, no number ones there. And, who cares? You know?
Also one of Mariah’s favorite singers. I know she’s very proud of that achievement but I also think that the moments when you stumble in public and when you’re not succeeding are moments that really strengthen the fanbase.
Because, as I say in the book, Mariah is one of the most famous, beloved pop stars of all time. And yet, there’s something paradoxical about her status in music history because she’s also one of the most underestimated.
And, uh, underappreciated artists. So how do you square those two facts? She is beloved. She’s made so she sold so many records. How could you even say that she’s neglected and underappreciated? Well, it’s because some of her best music is music that Y’all aren’t listening to. Uh, and When you finally do get around to it, you’ll realize oh, there was a lot more to Mariah than fantasy. There was a lot more to her than Heartbreaker and Yeah, I listen to Elusive Chanteuse all the time.
NARRATION: But Andrew’s just one Lamb.
Like he said, flops can be challenging for a fan. So, I wanted to speak to more Lambs to get their perspective on “The Elusive Chanteuse” album. Does its flop status bother them, or was the album just not a favorite? But where to find Lambs?
Luckily for me, it just so happened that in February, there was a “Mariah Night” at The Spot, a gay bar in Hell’s Kitchen. So I went. I asked Lambs if they’d be interested in talking about the album. Three “Mariah Night” attendees joined me in the studio a couple of weeks later to discuss their fandom and “The Elusive Chanteuse.”
The youngest of the bunch, Adam Delin, actually became a fan in 2013 during the messy beginnings of the “Elusive Chanteuse” era.
ADAM DELIN:
Yeah, yeah, so it is special for me in that way. Like, that was like during my peak, like, obsession, like that’s all I ever talked about.
NARRATION: He’s 24 now, but in 2013, during his “peak obsession” era, he was… you guessed it, 13.
Adam caught her when she was a judge on American Idol and was intrigued by her comical personality, so he decided to check out her music. His grandpa gave him his first two Mariah albums. An opposing pair: her first #1’s compilation and her first and most infamous flop, the one that almost derailed her career: Glitter. He became an instant fan – and the release of “The Elusive Chanteuse” was just on the horizon.
Adam remembers counting down the days until its release; at one point, its release date was on his birthday. He’d check Google News daily for new articles, desperate for information. Finally, it arrived.
I remember being so excited and like getting my headphones and like Excusing myself to go into my room and just like listen to it And I really like loved it so much like it was like it was like I was hearing god Like I think I was just like still Freaking excited for this album that like even if it I mean, it’s not a bad album, but um, even if it had been like bad Like I probably still would have loved it.
Um, but yeah, I just it was probably like the most Enjoyable listen of an album like I’ve ever had in my life. Like it was just so good. Um, that first listen was just so good. Um, but like short, like a week later, like I don’t know what happened. Like I, I fell out of love with the album, um, sadly. Um, but I, I do like it.
I would have to say, sadly say that it’s like a bottom tier album, which I don’t think is an unpopular opinion among Lambs.
NARRATION: The other Lambs in the room seemed to disagree. Jason Byrd, a 32-year-old from Florida, has been a fan nearly all his life, thanks to his mom. He also remembers his first time listening to the album.
JASON BYRD:
I remember being in the car and hearing the music and being like, Is that Stevie Wonder?
< MUX IN OF STEVIE WONDER ON INTRO OF “Make It Look Good” >
Like, on the harmonica? How did she get that? I was like, only Mariah Carey could get Stevie Wonder to play the harmonica, you know, on a track.
NARRATION: 31-year-old Rudys Jimenez from the Bronx first became a fan in 2005. He remembers his first listen to “The Elusive Chanteuse,” – on the rooftop of Boxers, a gay bar in Hell’s Kitchen, listening to it on his headphones.
RUDYS JIMENEZ:
Just my like initial reaction to it was just, um, definitely a much sadder side to her because I believe this was also like she had just given, well not just given birth, she had given birth to twins maybe a few years ago, but I think her marriage, um, was going through some things, um, and so you can hear that in her music and just her, um, Um, trying to process that breakup or that situation, and I think for myself, it was also a transformation in my life too, like leaving this era of, you know, not having truly financial responsibilities to having to be an adult, um, I think I reflected in that album a lot because that’s what it kind of showed with her, it’s like she was leaving one era, um, of marriage into this new one of like parenthood where n my opinion, it’s like she had to do it alone. Um, she was showing that to us, um, through her lyrics, especially with Cry.
Like, that song, I think even to this day, whenever I want to play that album again, it’s always the first song I play,
<MUX IN – “CRY”>
Just because it’s so deep. Um, and you very rarely get to hear Mariah give you deep songs like that as the first one. She usually reserves that towards the end because she feels like people won’t pay any to it.
< MUX IN – CLIP OF “CRY” – “Til we both break down/ Might as well tell the truth about the matter…” >
NARRATION: Except the Lambs… the Lambs pay attention. All the fans I spoke to noted the same about hearing the album’s opener, “Cry,” and another gut-wrenching song towards the end, “Camouflage.”
< MUX IN – CLIP of “CAMOUFLAGE” >
They were heartbreaking songs that seemed to confirm the rumors of her relationship troubles.
JASON:
I just felt really bad for her. I remember like she had just had. That pregnancy, which was really tough that she had talked about and then they had this, you know, they had the few years of marriage they were doing like the anniversaries every year and and then it just sort of started to fall apart in that way.
And you could, I mean, she, like you mentioned earlier, like she said how she felt in some of these interviews on some level. And I felt bad for her because in addition to being a fan of the music and stuff, like I, I do want her to be well as a human.
So, I felt really, really, really crappy and really bad for her.
RUDYS:
I think for me it’s just like. I feel like that entire era was mismanaged from the very beginning. Like, I know she got hurt and that really, like, I think her injury and really threw off the really strong trajectory that Beautiful was having.
NARRATION: I tried to reach representatives for Carey to get a comment from her about the era, but I had no luck. She remains an Elusive Chanteuse. Regardless of what was assumed to be happening in her world, Carey still showed gratitude for her fans with special moments, even during this tumultuous time in her life and career.
RUDYS:
I think for me, one moment that of that era that is iconic and I have it on my phone was her live performance at Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Fallon, he had a contest…
JASON: i’m so glad someone mentioned it. I’m so glad someone mentioned it
RUDYS: Just, it’s one of those moments where it’s like, when I saw it, I was just like, why was, why was I in college? … but the second that moment happened, I’m like, oh, this is what we’re using to get this album to number one, because I feel like it’s when she is at her most relaxed, is when she gives us gold TV.
1:46:34-52
ADAM:
And it proves that the mic is on too.
RUDYS: Exactly.
ADAM: I’m so jealous of those fans that Jimmy found. That’s so cool.
VINCENT: So, I need to show you something
JASON: OOh! You were there! No way!
RUDYS: No way
ADAM: I knew it!
(Laughter)
NARRATION: Yeah. I was there. Like Rudys said, “Late Night With Jimmy Fallon” had a contest to promote a single Carey released in November 2013 during the injury-induced album delay. Fans who won the contest were invited to the studio. They told us we were making a video for Mariah. That we’d listen to the new single, they’d record our reactions, and share it with her. But Mariah was actually there, hiding in another room the whole time.
< CLIP, JIMMY FALLON (& MARIAH CAREY): Hey guys I’m here with the one and only Mariah Carey and we’re gonna do this fun thing, we invited a bunch of her super fans to this recording studio…so they get an exclusive listen to Mariah’s new song, “The Art of Letting Go,” they’re gonna listen to it, and we wanna get their reactions, that’s what we’re telling them, they have no idea, Mariah’s gonna be singing it live… in the recording studio right next to them… >
They stuffed about 20 of us into a waiting room, took our phones, and led us up to the studio in groups of four. I was in the last group. We sat on the sofa next to Jimmy Fallon, listening to the song. When the bridge started, I heard her voice – but doubled, and then suddenly I saw Mariah Carey herself pop out of the secret recording booth.
< CLIP: Mariah singing “The Art of Letting Go” (Fan reactions: WHAT??!?!?! Laughter, applause, etc…) >
I clapped my hands over my face in disbelief. After it was over, we went to the rooftop to have pizza, and then we were invited back down to the studio for another performance.
<MUX IN – MARIAH: Won’t you just give them a little bit of some kind of emotion on your face like “oh I’m feeling something” even though we’re not quite sure what Mariah’s doing right now… >
NARRATION: They told us, and Mariah, that they’d film us for more reaction shots. So, to entertain us, she began this hilarious improvised performance. But… she quickly realized that they weren’t really filming us…
< MARIAH: I see you filming me what the f— Ooohhhh…. All I know is this part…. But I do recall I thought we said we’d get the audiences’ faces…>
NARRATION: She clearly couldn’t remember the lyrics to the song her pianist was playing, so she continued to improvise—
<MARIAH: (laughter) “All I know is this part…” (laughter) >
Then, once again, she reminded them they weren’t supposed to be filming her.
<MARIAH: “But I do recall… That I thought we said we’d get the audience’s faces…”>
Eventually, she gave up and transitioned to performing an improvised version of “The Art of Letting Go.”
< MARIAH: Let’s get to another one of the songs on the repertoire…”>
NARRATION: Mariah has given plenty of phenomenal performances throughout her career, many with perfect, irreplicable vocals – those star-making kind of moments. But this performance? I think it’s gotta be the best one she’s ever done.
<MARIAH: I’m making a statement of my own opinion, just a brief little reminder…>
And there’s only one reason for that: she was at her most comfortable, surrounded by her most dedicated fans.
<MARIAH: I no longer live in that dominion that I once lived in with those people that I didn’t like and they were there every day and it was oh so difficult to be there, but I stayed and I stayed and I stayed…>
I can’t watch or listen to it back without getting teary-eyed.
< MARIAH: and I wore them dresses and I did that shit that I hated, ohhh,>
It was the most incredible fan experience I’ve had in my life.
< MARIAH: letting go… (laughs)… letting go, letting go, ain’t easy… (applause)>
So, yes. I’m a Lamb. Like Jason, I was introduced to Mariah through my mother in the early 90s, but by 1997, at just seven years old, I was a full-fledged fan. Her music has gotten me through so many tough times. And I love this album. Glitter is a great album too, but Glitter is an infamous flop. “The Elusive Chanteuse” was a complete non-event. Nobody cared either way, and they missed out on some great music.
Exactly two months after “The Elusive Chanteuse” was released, I launched THE 97, my online music magazine. I felt there weren’t enough people speaking in depth about some of the more underrated music I loved. So, I embraced my passion for writing and made my community. I wrote about what I wanted, and people responded to it. The Lambs, in particular, have engaged with my writing more than any other fan base.
After publishing his book “Why Mariah Carey Matters,” Andrew experienced a similar response.
ANDREW:
I was so surprised by how sweet all the Lambs were, and I thought there was going to be one nasty ass Lamb out there somewhere who was going to get in touch with me, but it didn’t happen.
None, not one, not even one said like, how dare you? say that you didn’t like rainbow. And in fact, they, uh, some people wrote me and said, you know, I love rainbow, but I completely understand what you said, what you wrote. And it just, I think it’s, it shows a maturity, um, and a curiosity and I think that’s why if you’re a fan who’s been invested in her for years and years and has listened to the music over and over again, you’re looking for something to reflect your feelings back to you in words, and that really, there’s not a lot of that on Mariah.
There’s plenty of that on the Beatles. There’s plenty of that on, um, Billie Holiday or Aretha Franklin. There’s really not that much on Mariah, and so that’s really what I was trying to do was, um, tell the people like me who have been invested in her for a long time, and also people who Don’t really fuck with her and don’t really know that much about her.
Talk to both of these audiences, the invested and the people, the uninitiated, and show people Okay, this is, this is real. Like you’re not imagining this. This music actually is very deep.
NARRATION: “The Elusive Chanteuse” is among the most personal albums Mariah has put out. The album’s lyrics are almost invasively honest. Musically, each song is one color on the palette of her career’s sonic landscape. But perhaps that’s why it didn’t quite connect for the masses. It’s not for the masses. Like she sang on her song “Looking In,” they’ll never know the real Mariah. But we do. To get this album, you need to have a certain amount of “Lamb context.” It requires a bit of close reading, but the result is rewarding.
ANDREW: Sometimes the flops are some of the most interesting music that she puts out.
“Me. I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse” is one of those albums. And we love it for that reason. It’s all the more interesting because it’s coded for us. More than any of her albums with commercial, cross-over sensibilities and universal, relatable lyrics, it feels like it was crafted with us in mind. She dedicated it to us, and for that, we’re eternally dedicated to her.
< MUX IN – “Dedicated” – “This is dedicated to you.” >
CREDITS:
Now, for the deluxe…
Just kidding, it’s a wrap. Time to let the credits roll.
This podcast was written, reported, and produced by me, Vincent Anthony, and edited by Meg Cramer.
Thank you to the Lambily… Andrew Chan, Adam Delin, Jason Byrd, Paul Leasure, and Rudys Jimenez for speaking to me about The Elusive Chanteuse.
For more on the album, visit my website THE 97, to order the print magazine I published in conjunction with this podcast. It features contributions from 12 Lambs, who each wrote a personal essay about one of the album’s 15 songs, and more. Go to THE97.NET/shop